Posts by Disillusioned JW

103

Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman in

only jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.

“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.

Disillusioned JW

Correction/Revision: The last paragraph of my prior post is now revised to say the following.

Note for the example the following. Genesis 32:28-29 records an angel as saying that Jacob's "name will no longer be called Jacob but Israel", but 2.5 chapters later, in Genesis 35:18, Genesis records God telling Jacob "no longer is your name to to be called Jacob, but Israel your name will become." Notice that in one case an angel is saying the name will be changed but that in another case God is saying it. Though these examples might not be a contradiction of each other, it is still odd that Jacob is being told that at two different times (once by angel and once by God). The latter part of Genesis 35:18 says "And he began to call his name Israel" yet verses 14, 22, 27, and 29 still say Jacob even though verse 21 says Israel, and 36:6 says Jacob instead of Israel. It is odd that chapter 35 keeps switching back and forth from the use of the name Jacob to the name Israel, and 37:1-2 says Jacob instead of Israel, but the idea of somewhat conflicting documentary sources being combined makes sense of this.

I remember that at least one time when I was an active JW I was perplexed why the book of Genesis kept switching back and forth in its use of the names Jacob and Israel for the some person - even after the portion of the narrative which said the name change by God took effect. Back then I didn't know of the documentary hypothesis.

103

Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman in

only jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.

“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.

Disillusioned JW

Fisherman, what you said about accounts in the Bible of God appearing and of angels being addressed as Jehovah, might be the way those biblical accounts were meant to be interpreted, but I lean towards a different view. When I contemplated those accounts a number of years ago I was thinking those accounts have internal contradictions, and/or contradict other parts of the Bible. In addition, now I see it as possible evidence of the scholarly documentary hypothesis that some stories in the OT are a combination of conflicting sources from two or more areas - namely those from the northern kingdom (Israel) who primarily called God by the title/name of Elohim, those from the southern kingdom (Judah) who primarily called God by the name of Yahweh/Jehovah, those from the Priestly class, and the Deuteronomist source.

Note for the example the following. Genesis 32:28-29 9 records an angel as saying that Jacob's "name will no longer be called Jacob but Israel", but 2.5 chapters later, in Genesis 35:18 says God tells Jacob "no longer is your name to to be called Jacob, but Israel your name will become." Notice that in one case an angel is saying the name will be changed but that in another case God is saying it. The latter part of 35:18 says "And he began to call his name Israel" yet verse 14, 22, 27, and 29 still say Jacob even though verse 21 says Israel, and 36:6 says Jacob instead of Israel, and 37:1-2 also says Jacob instead of Israel. It is odd that chapter 35 keeps switching back and forth from the use of the name Jacob to the name Israel, but the idea of somewhat conflicting documentary sources being used makes sense of this.

36

My personal thoughts on Ray Franz

by Terry in

the death of ray franz hit me harder than i would have thought.. i had to reflect for awhile....alone......and quietly.. .

after all, fine people die every day and some of them are indispensable, yet, we go on....don't we?.

but, ray franz was something that can only be described in the phrase sui generis (one of a kind).. my task was to ask myself what it was that made ray so singular, potent and admirable without a trace of scandal or ill will attached to his memory.. .

Disillusioned JW

Thanks dropoffyourkeylee for bringing to my attention that "neither of the Carl Olaf Jonsson books with pdf links are available at the previously posted link." I was surprised when you informed me of such, since the link for The Sign of the Last Days – When? book had worked for me the prior time I had used it. I now notice that it doesn't work, but have no worry for today I discovered that both books can be read online at https://archive.org/ and downloaded from that site. Visit that site and then type in Carl Olof Jonsson's name in the search bar. You will then see working links to both of his books. I tested those links earlier today and downloaded both of the books from that web site.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Regarding the issue of God's sovereignty over history being taught in the book of Daniel, I also see it in the regards to the image that Daniel and his friends (and everyone else in the pagan kingdom) are told to bow down to, and in people being told not pray (or petition) to anyone but the pagan king, for a period of time. I also see the issue of God's sovereignty over history being taught in other parts of the book of Daniel.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Regarding the debate of whether the Book of Daniel is about God's kingdom or not consider the following at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_2 . "The overall theme of the Book of Daniel is God's sovereignty over history.[5]" I agree with that statement in the Wikipedia article. When I read the book of Daniel I see claims of Yahweh Elohim's sovereignty being taught throughout the book. I see that (according to the book) of Yahweh choosing the king of Babylon to conquer Judah, in Yahweh choosing the king of Media-Persia to conquer the kingdom of Babylon, in so-called foretelling subsequent kingdoms (of Greece and Roman), and of God's messianic kingdom conquering all pagan kingdoms. I also see it regards to the account of the "pushing" of the kings of the north and of the south and that Michael will take action.

103

Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman in

only jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.

“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.

Disillusioned JW

Revision of the last paragraph of my prior post: From the point of view of atheism, it doesn't matter much if the Bible consistently teaches that Jesus is God, a god, an angel, or each, or neither. A number of observations make more sense when examined from the point of view of atheism (and naturalism). For example, the Bible becomes perceived as merely being the ideas of adult male human authors lacking supernatural inspiration.

A further point: I think that on this site, instead of me arguing (or debating or refuting) about what I think the Bible teaches versus what someone else thinks the Bible teaches I will instead point out theological contradictions in the Bible and false teachings of the Bible. That way when discussing biblical theology I can focus on directing people away from theism and towards atheism. By so doing I can direct people towards the truth of atheism and its grand implications.

103

Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman in

only jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.

“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.

Disillusioned JW

Vanderhoven7, Jesus might not have said what the Gospel of John claims Jesus said Likewise Thomas might not have said what the Gospel of John claims Thomas said (of "my Lord and my God"). The "Jesus Seminar" concluded that most of the sayings attributed to Jesus in the NT gospel accounts are not actual sayings of Jesus.

Atheism (positive/strong atheism) is a truth - an important truth. Jesus if he existed, was only a man - a mortal man who died and remained dead. Jesus is not a god-man nor God nor a god.

From the point of view of atheism, it doesn't matter much if the Bible consistently teaches that Jesus is God, a god, and angel, or each, or neither.

36

My personal thoughts on Ray Franz

by Terry in

the death of ray franz hit me harder than i would have thought.. i had to reflect for awhile....alone......and quietly.. .

after all, fine people die every day and some of them are indispensable, yet, we go on....don't we?.

but, ray franz was something that can only be described in the phrase sui generis (one of a kind).. my task was to ask myself what it was that made ray so singular, potent and admirable without a trace of scandal or ill will attached to his memory.. .

Disillusioned JW

In the Fourth Edition (hardcover edition) of Crisis of Conscience printed in 2004 in a footnote on page 22 Raymond says the Insight book consists of "very minor revisions" of the Aid book which it replaced.

36

My personal thoughts on Ray Franz

by Terry in

the death of ray franz hit me harder than i would have thought.. i had to reflect for awhile....alone......and quietly.. .

after all, fine people die every day and some of them are indispensable, yet, we go on....don't we?.

but, ray franz was something that can only be described in the phrase sui generis (one of a kind).. my task was to ask myself what it was that made ray so singular, potent and admirable without a trace of scandal or ill will attached to his memory.. .

Disillusioned JW

The free PDF of Raymond's Crisis of Conscience is of the Fourth Edition (available at https://friendsofraymondfranz.com/books-in-english/ ), but the most recent edition is the Fifth Edition (which is based upon the manuscript of the 2008 Printing of the Fourth Edition).

103

Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman in

only jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.

“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.

Disillusioned JW

Regarding whom the Bible teaches raised Jesus from the dead, please consider possibility that the Bible might be contradicting itself. John 2:19,21 (written after Paul's letters) might be contradicting what Galatians 1:1 says. Keep in mind that the gospel attributed as being according to John is the book of the Bible which makes the strongest claim of Jesus being "a god" or God - more so than another biblical book.